Drupal 10 Support

yep. I'd like to know this also... There has been questions from our organization why we can't be completely up to date...

Anyone have insights on a d10 release date? and/or what updates it may include?

So being it's End of November, Beginning December that would mean in the next few weeks!

Hello there,

I know the announcement was made that 3.2.0 will be released by the end of the year (2023). Do you have a new anticipated date for this release?

We are desperate to know an actual date for this as it is holding up our development.
One thing that would help is if you could say if the theme will still be based on Bootstrap 4 or will you be upgrading to Bootstrap 5?

We would also like to know what version of boostrap 3.2.0 will be using... If you are not going to release it soon, an update with these kinds of details would go a long way.

Hi @Tim Corkerton and @jive01
It will be Bootstrap 4.6.2

Any further updates on the timeline of the release of v3.2?

Is there a update relating to the D10 version.

Last I heard was End of 2023, we then heard end of Jan and here we are flying through February.

Hi @kavo3, @jamesmacintyre

The initial announcement was indeed optimistic, and we are sorry for this. For now we don't want to commit on a precise date, in order to not create disappointment or frustration.

What we can say is that we are definitely committed to doing it as soon as it will be reasonably possible.

In short, this upgrade amounted for much larger changes than we anticipated, but additionally the release on drupal.org doesn't depend just on us, and represents some additional work, and for obvious reasons in very busy periods we have to focus as first priority on our customers.

In case this upgrade is business-critical for some of you, please contact us at https://www.opigno.org/contact

Thanks for your understanding!

I would like to get started with Opigno, and have been holding off for Drupal 10. Any comment on the migration from Drupal 9 to 10 - is it better to wait (this project is not urgent, but I have time now I may not have later); or will migration from from 3.1 to 3.2 be very easy?

@karunadave I would say to NOT start any new projects on Opigno 3.1 with 3.2 being around the corner and prepping for D10. You'll save your self the heartache of an upgrade.

I will say that it's becoming harder to justify Opigno for government sites, as staying up to date to the latest drupal and updates is a big priority. We've always had to stay a bit behind in updates due to Opigno not really being ready... I hope this changes...

Total agreement with @jive01

Is there any appetite from others for a fork?

I was considering posing the same question. Pending a response on #3426669: Publish a 3.2.x development release → , I would support a fork.

I am also completely support a fork and am ready to help
the problem I have with Opigno is not just about timely releases. It comes with a lot of bloat.

Very interesting comments.

It sounds like The first Drupal 10 release will be Opigno 3.2.x, with Group 1.x → .

Having worked on upgrades from Group 1.x to 2.x and 3.x, I would much prefer a fresh start with Group 3.x.

Rather than a fork, ideally collaborating with on a Drupal 10, Group 3.x version would be best, with help from the Drupal community. Where does development of opigno_lms happen or is it not public?

Unfortunately, it is not public. See #3426669: Publish a 3.2.x development release → , noted in #22 above.

Like @Finn Lewis said, Group 3.x would be the best option.

Very concerned about the status of Opigno and wondering about how the community could support this in some other way.

I am very new to Drupal, but I agree with keiserjb, and Finn, how can the community support Opigno?

@abedih I haven't forked a project before but if you do fork it, we will contribute.

@DerekAhmedzai I'm am up for a fork, as long as it makes it easy to migrate from the Opigno distribution.

There are a lot of modules to fork. It is a pretty large undertaking.

Another alternative I have recently discovered is not a distribution but a module. I haven't installed it yet, but
https://www.drupal.org/project/anu_lms →
https://systemseed.com/anu-lms

This is not cool. They list themselves as an open source project but they;'ve admitted to closing their source on this for their "paying customers" first. Doesn't this violate some licensing issue within Drupal's license? This, at its very least, flies in the face of the spirit of open source.

If it's not open source.... stop advertising it as such.

Could not agree more!

Technically, this project is still open source, even without a dev branch, and within GPL2 license rules.

However, I agree with the sentiment of #33 → and #34 → . Follow, comment, and share support for #3426669: Publish a 3.2.x development release → . Let the maintainers know the community wants to be behind them. There are plenty of examples of successful distributions that are supported by the larger Drupal community while still maintaining the final decision for adoption by the maintainers.

If that fails, we should consider supporting a fork. But, that will not be a small endeavor. There are quite a number of modules in the Opigno ecosystem and it would require a dedicated effort by a handful of folks to guide the process.

It has been a year since there was an update. It is now 7 months past "by end of year." Lack of open, honest communications and updates is abandonment, and don't want to be left turning the lights out. Anyone "ballpark" what it would take to fork this distribution (time/money - not trivial) - would consider contributing.

My team contemplated forking a while back. And it is a lot and, as a company, we don't have funding for it. As for Drupal 10, that is one thing, but some of the dependent libraries such as H5P are not happy under PHP 8.2 or 8.3 although we did update it ourselves to work with 8.2 and are working to do the same with 8.3.

Unless there is someone with some significant pockets, this is waaaaay bigger than a simple fork of the project. I'm game to help, we'd need to figure out some kind of organization and who is willing to help out since there are so many modules, pieces, profiles and project creation from Composer.

Let me know what you all think.

We are happy to answer all your questions and requests in complete transparency: https://www.opigno.org/contact

Opigno LMS continues to be maintained, and D10 release will be published on drupal.org soon.

While analyzing the possibility of a fork, you probably have been able to get an idea of the workload and the efforts that we have made for this since 2013.

Thank you for your understanding.

I am fairly new to Drupal and PHP but with my limited knowledge and time I would love to help contribute what I can to learn/maintain the Opigno distribution. I am new to how this process is started but I think it is logical that we need a way to legitimately see who or what kind of time/money is available to maintain this project. @ElusiveMind feel free to reach out to me or ping me in this chat and I'll be there after my work hours!

For "complete transparency" Opigno should answer the questions here, not via an unpublished individual contact request.
Respect for Opigno's business, and customers do come first, but this community and platform deserve respect for their business too. Clearly there have been challenges, but there is no way to guess what is happening with fixes, enhancements, and what new changes are coming, and ALL of this has serious cost impact on those waiting 8 months for "soon" to happen.
Openness and communications, more than "transparency," would go a long way towards shaping decisions of fork/not fork, or even drupal/not drupal. Meanwhile, without any more tangible information or expectations, consideration of a fork, or abandonment, appears prudent.

For reference here are the users who have discussed helping maintain/support a fork thus far:
DerekAhmedzai #21
jcandan #22
abedih #23
danlinn #29
worktapper #36
ElusiveMind #37
b1ueh4wk #39

Also it is worth mentioning that many (if not all) would welcome a change to have a developmental release available as well.

I believe msouidi, ElusiveMind, jcandan, worktapper, keiserjb all said what is on everyone's mind. This is a HUGE project. And if we are going to fork it, it is obviously with the intention of providing more than what Opigno is currently providing. If we as a community cannot provide more than Opigno is providing, then we should not fork it.

- What is needed exactly to maintain this project?
- What is needed exactly to provide more than the current project is providing?
- Do we communicate somewhere else publicly other than on this issue to progress this conversation of a fork?
- How do we proceed with this conversation?

@msouidi, I appreciate your communication here. Opigno is/was several months behind this major update with little to no insight to where Opigno is/was in their work to update this project. As mentioned several times in these comments, we have no idea if the maintainers of Opigno are making headway on this distribution or if they are working on other projects or clients. As our business (and clearly others) currently rely on Opigno, we cannot ignore this behavior. We are forced to make a risk/cost analysis of whether we can rely on Opigno's pattern of behavior or not. I assume that is why many others have advocated for a fork, development release, and alternative technologies on these issues. If there is no fork and there is no change from Opigno, these are the options we have identified for our business:

1. Trust in Opigno (*expecting this behavior/situation to continue and happen again in the future)
2. Pay Opigno to maintain our website(s) (*contractually agreeing to keep the site updated)
3. Pay other developers for updates of Opigno (*internally or external developers that are not Opigno)
4. Fund/Maintain a fork of Opigno
5. Find an alternative product and rebuild

I implore you to understand that if a fork doesn't happen or if Opigno doesn't change anything; We reason that the only users that would go with option 1 are the businesses that find the Opigno updates to be non-essential to their business. We reason that it would be difficult to pick options 2-4 as we see this as Opigno actively losing legitimate interest in their product.

For reference here are the users who have discussed helping maintain/support a fork thus far: #21 #22 #23 #29 #36 #37 #39

Also it is worth mentioning that many (if not all) would welcome a change to have a developmental release available as well.

I believe many have said what is on everyone's mind. This is a HUGE project. And if we are going to fork it, it is obviously with the intention of providing more than what Opigno is currently providing. If we as a community cannot provide more than Opigno is providing, then we should not fork it.

- What is needed exactly to maintain this project?
- What is needed exactly to provide more than the current project is providing?
- Do we communicate somewhere else publicly other than on this issue to progress this conversation of a fork?
- How do we proceed with this conversation?

I appreciate Opigno's communication here. Opigno is/was several months behind this major update with little to no insight to where Opigno is/was in their work to update this project. As mentioned several times in these comments, we have no idea if the maintainers of Opigno are making headway on this distribution or if they are working on other projects or clients. As our business (and clearly others) currently rely on Opigno, we cannot ignore this behavior. We are forced to make a risk/cost analysis of whether we can rely on Opigno's pattern of behavior or not. I assume that is why many others have advocated for a fork, development release, and alternative technologies on these issues. If there is no fork and there is no change from Opigno, these are the options we have identified for our business:

1. Trust in Opigno (*expecting this behavior/situation to continue and happen again in the future)
2. Pay Opigno to maintain our website(s) (*contractually agreeing to keep the site updated)
3. Pay other developers for updates of Opigno (*internally or external developers that are not Opigno)
4. Fund/Maintain a fork of Opigno
5. Find an alternative product and rebuild

I implore you to understand that if a fork doesn't happen or if Opigno doesn't change anything; We reason that the only users that would go with option 1 are the businesses that find the Opigno updates to be non-essential to their business. We reason that it would be difficult to pick options 2-4 as we see this as Opigno actively losing legitimate interest in their product.

So will Opigno be ready for Drupal 11? That's coming "soon" too.

"We are happy to answer all your questions and requests in complete transparency: https://www.opigno.org/contact." Colleague tried to this approach - no response.

No one at Opigno responds to "contact" as instructed, nor do they provide explanation of delay/release or even a timeframe. Axel (CEO) and Opigno started posting on LinkedIn a month or so ago, so it seems they are kicking up marketing a bit - inference is they're alive, but the community is effectively ignored.

Opigno sells Opigno, which has a lot of capabilities/features the OS distro does not. My guess is that private Opigno works on D10, but they have to take a lot of capabilities away to have an OS version, which is a lot of work and a low priority for them. Don't think it's an issue of making Opigno work on D10, I think it's an issue of dumbing their release down enough and limiting its scope for an OS version.. So we wait, in a back room, in the dark, for who knows how long. There are way better ways Opigno could handle this distribution's release/updates and support those who enabled them.

Going forward, unless Opigno/Axel can give comfort in some fashion, a fork or alt replacement appear to be the only options.

I have spoken with Opigno and they do have a private distro that is 100% D10 compatible and ready to use. However, you do have to pay in order to gain access to this distro, and you have to continue to pay monthly in order to maintain access to the distro and receive security updates. This information is as of 3 months ago and I have yet to see any movement on the OS front.

Thank you rudy.barrett. It feels as I have been misled on timing and intent, so time to reassess. Anyone scoped/priced out a fork? I'd consider contributing some funds. Love Drupal, and would hate to have to move elsewhere like Moodle, but don't see how can rely on this going forward. It's sad, really.

Opigno relies on multiple contributed modules tied together through a composer distribution with patches to core and other contributed modules that are heavily version dependent for the patches. This is likely due to the age of these dependencies.

I've built my own distribution of this because I had to cobble two distributions together - Opigno and Open Social into a single multisite install (don't ask).

So the task is two parts. Both are significant:

1. Update the Opigno specific contributed modules. At this point, I would go with Drupal 11/10 hybrid and not just 10. Just my personal preference but I realize that may not be an option for some.
2. Update the Opigno specific contributed modules to work with updated dependencies (groups, etc).

It's not a small effort. I can understand why Opigno is doing this, but I do not support it. They've taken community contributed work and rolled it into a SaaS project which tarnishes open source in my opinion. I'm not going to beat them up about it because it wouldn't change anything. But fool me one, shame on me. Won't be fooled again.

I don't know if I could contribute to this. It will depend on my client's willingness to fund our portion of the work. Unfortunately, I am too committed to my paid projects and personal projects to turn this into a pet project. But I would offer logistical help, as much institutional knowledge as possible and code when possible.

I wish I could be more help, but I am being honest in the assessment here.

ElusiveMind, thank you. I looked into Opigno + Open Social myself, and opted to stand down at the time. Am multisite as well. Makes total sense to me.

Seems we're going to have to build our own distro. Assuming we pull it off, we'll give it back and maintain.

Hi everyone,

I think we were transparent but as it seems that there is still confusion, here are some clarifications and answers to some questions.

Will a D10 release be done on Drupal.org ? Definitely. We said we will do it and we will.

When? We don’t want to generate additional frustrations by announcing a date and then not be able to meet this deadline. We cannot commit to more than best effort.

Why is it still not available? All developers involved in Opigno project are employees of our company. If we want to move faster we need to hire more developers but the company needs to pay their salaries. So far we cannot afford for more developers and our team is fully busy with customers’ project, maintenance of Opigno (nearly weekly updates and security fixes have to be done), and starting to prepare for D11. FYI thousands of hours are spent every year by our developers on Opigno, then the result if made available on Drupal.org. That’s a huge investment of time and money. And it’s increasing more and more as the frequency of Drupal releases is increasing.

Is there already a D10 release available for our clients? Yes, and we have always been transparent with this. We give the priority to our clients because they are paying the salaries of our developers, and our remaining available time is spent for the community management. It’s impossible to address customers’ expectations and open source management at same pace. If Opigno exists it’s because our company maintains it, and if our company exists it’s because we have customers.

What about the ones with « business critical » needs for a D10 release ? In such case you should not use open source software without editor support. This is valid not only for Opigno but for all entreprise software. We introduced a specific offer allowing our customers to get faster updates and benefit from SLA. This also brings benefits for open source community since it will allow us to hire more developers and better and faster develop Opigno. Purchasing editor support is the best way to support some open source project.

Will there be a D11 release? Yes, on the same principle as D10.

I think it’s difficult to be more transparent and I hope it will bring the necessary clarity.

What about the ones with « business critical » needs for a D10 release ? In such case you should not use open source software without editor support

Wow..... just..... wow.

When? We don’t want to generate additional frustrations by announcing a date and then not be able to meet this deadline.

I think you already did that when you said it would be completed before the end of the year back in December.

The community will help support this project if Opigno will let us. If not, expect a fork.

@pixiekat indeed we communicated a deadline that we could not meet and that was a mistake. This is why we won’t repeat the same mistake.

As for open source everyone is free to have their own vision. Let’s say that our company is obviously supporting open source in a very different way since for every OS technology that we are using we purchased editor support. Our vision for supporting them.

Why would I expect paid support to be any better than the support of the public project?

@keiserjb last time we asked for help to manage some issue to someone who opened a ticket on Drupal.org, the guy answered that he had no customer paying for these hours to help for issue resolution. That’s open source vision of a lot (most) people: let’s open tickets, let’s request what we want, and wait for it to arrive for free and fast.

I’m not sure that you really measure the amount of work to maintain Opigno. It cannot happen with just a few hours when available. Be honest and say how many hours you could dedicate to it per week (in a guaranteed way).
Opigno was created 11 years ago. We had time to analyze this question and unfortunately community could not bring the necessary support. Sadly.

Once again, we will continue providing releases. If you think that you can do better, feel free to fork !

I apologize for getting fired up but this is no longer an open source project if it is a paid service and the Drupal community cannot aid in the issue queue.

@keiserjb I guess you just pretend not understanding. It’s not A paid service. There is the open source project AND the optional paid service. Nothing extraordinary.

As a summary:
For the ones who will wait the Opigno D10 release will happen.
For the ones who want a fork, let’s code it.
And this way everyone will be happy.

Enjoy your weekend !

axelm, thank you for your update and reply to the community. I understand your frustration better now as you explained how your company's vision is!

Your company financially supports every single open source technology that you use.

That is quite an undertaking, very mindful of the tech you use, and I absolutely love Opigno more for that!

It seems clear that you realize that this is different from the vast majority of users that use open source technologies.

Why not explicitly share this with the Open Source community? https://www.drupal.org/project/opigno_lms →

I think this is a big miscommunication, and an opportunity for growth on both sides: Something like this:

Conscientious use of Open Source

We at Opigno financially support every single open source technology that is business critical to us. If your use case for Opigno LMS is business critical, please contact us here: _______ so that your business will get the critical updates on time and that you too can support the free distribution of Opigno LMS to non-critical businesses. If your intended application of Opigno is critical to your business, you critically need to contact us about getting a support plan.

Obviously this should be changed as needed, but this would be more clear.

Also there have been several people mentioning they have filled out the online form for support weeks ago with no response. Is this where they should comment to get contacted or should they just wait longer?

Once again, I apoligize and thank you for the update.

@b1ueh4wk
Thanks for your understanding and for tour suggestion and proposal of wording. I agree with you that our communication was probably not sufficient. Next week will add some similar message to the one you suggested.

As for the people who wrote they filled in our contact form but did not receive any answer, what I can say is that all people contacting us are receiving an answer. Except in case of some technical issue that would have prevented us from receiving their message, it’s not possible that they would not have received any answer. If these people could provide their email address I could investigate in our CRM to know if and when they contacted us, and what was the answer given to them.

If you just want a soft fork, this might not be all that much work, as you can use the existing Opigno modules either as-is, or with just some minor patching. I did some testing this weekend with updating Opigno 3.1.0 to run on Drupal 10, and while it got a bit tedious sorting through compatibility issues and other minor errors, I haven't run into any major problems so far.

My main issue when testing Opigno has been that it is too difficult to customize, so if someone wants to make a fork that is a bit more modular and customizable, I might be up for helping out with this.

@reswild, can you share your notes of the update you've done on weekend with us? It would be great, if you can:)

I've uploaded what I've done so far to https://gitlab.com/reswild/opigno-lms-d10/ but there's still some work to be done before it installs cleanly.

What remains confusing: D10 is released for their clients, so why isn't it released here? Two separate distros; instead of adding to public for private, they do the opposite and have to dumb/strip down private for public. This is also why Opigno has always been so difficult to unwind and customize, and no surprise it is so much work for them. On top of this, there is no apparent partnership/shared effort on this distro, fair reasons or not, and no trustworthy or reliable outcome is presented. A fork, new maintainers, and/or a different approach is needed. Meanwhile, this distro appears dead.

I’ve sent multiple emails to @axelm and we have paid support hours and they still aren’t responding. We even offered to pay whatever the extortion rate is to get the D10 version. It’s pretty clear they are abandoning open source as we understand it. I’m working with folks on the Drupal slack on a fork. @reswild Your code may be a good start for that!

Dan@danlinn.com
Please stop lying, I never received any message from you.
Make also sure to use a proper and respectful language, your language is not acceptable.
Very impatient to see your masterpiece fork ! I hope it’s not a lie like the fact that you contacted me.

You're calling me a liar and I'm being disrespectful? Ok, buddy.

Is your email address still Axel Minck ? I got that when we bought support hours and met with your team. Here are the emails I've sent that have gone unanswered:

Sent April 15, 2022 - got an out of office, but never a reply:
Hello Opigno crew!

We’ve got an issue we’d like to discuss around config imports as we gear up to go live with our implementation. Can we get some time on a calendar to discuss it under our support contract?

Also, any representatives coming to Drupalcon? We’d love to meet you in person!

Thanks,
Dan

Sent April 15th, 2024 - no reply:
Hello Axel,

I hope you’re doing well. We’ve been anticipating the release of the Drupal 10-supported version of Opigno, as initially indicated for Q1 completion. We understand that timelines can shift, but we find ourselves at a critical point where we need to plan our next steps.

We are currently limited to Drupal 9.3 and unable to upgrade to PHP 8, which is not ideal. Given the situation, we’d like to leverage our support hours to discuss how we can move forward. It's become apparent that the focus may have shifted towards cloud products, and we're left uncertain about the roadmap for Opigno.

Could we schedule a call soon to explore solutions using our support hours? Whether it’s a development release, forking, simply updating some dependencies, or even having our team assist in development, we’re open to suggestions. Our goal is to ensure a smooth transition to Drupal 10 with minimal disruption to our operations.

We appreciate your attention to this matter and look forward to finding a viable path forward.

Thanks,
Dan

Sent May 29th - no reply:
Hello Axel,

I didn't hear back about this, and in the meantime, I've seen your posts in the issue queues. What do we have to pay to get the upgraded code for D10? We still have support hours, and I thought that meant we were a "paying customer", but if not, we need to find out what it takes to become one.

Thanks,
Dan

So am I a liar or are you just super shady and pulling an open source rug pull? Our fork won't be a masterpiece, but it will be open source.

@danlinn
I never received any of these emails.
And sorry for you, but I never enable out of office on my emails. So it fully demonstrates that you’re a liar.
Work on your fork now, I’m very impatient to seen what a guy like you can do, I have the feeling that I will be laughing a lot.
From now on I won’t any more answer to your messages, no time to waste.

@axelm, its good that you are not communicating here anymore here because your communication has turned completely inappropriate and unprofessional.

Based upon the behavior in here, how would any of us wish to become a customer?

@bluehawk work on the fork in a professional way

@keiserjb work on the fork instead of becoming a customer

@axelm, I do not know what you mean by "work on the fork in a professional way". Is there something I have said here that is unprofessional? If so, what would be the more correct way to say it?

For instance I see you communicating to someone in this manner:
"
@danlinn
I never received any of these emails.
And sorry for you, but I never enable out of office on my emails. So it fully demonstrates that you’re a liar.
Work on your fork now, I’m very impatient to seen what a guy like you can do, I have the feeling that I will be laughing a lot.
From now on I won’t any more answer to your messages, no time to waste.
" -axelm

I would suggest that a more professional and appropriate communication would be:

"
@danlinn
I never received any of these emails. I never enable out of office on my emails. If you are a customer and you are trying to contact us please contact us ______ or provide your email to me by messaging me here ______. As I said previously, except in case of some technical issue that would have prevented us from receiving the message, it’s not possible that you would not have received any answer.
"

I suggest you edit #69 to something more professional.

@bluehawk thank you so much for suggesting some wording but why pretending a technical issue when you are sure that there was not any ?

If some of you are really interested about the initial topic of a D10 release: better using your time to work on a fork instead of writing in this thread.
If you are interested in creating conflicts as it seems: it will be without me, sorry.

Last message from me here.

@axelm, That makes sense thank you for clarifying.

1) From my point of view, not being able to move from Drupal 9 to Drupal 10 is a technical issue that is currently ongoing. I apologize if it comes across as pretending there is a technical issue.

2) I agree with your sentiment of "let's get to work". See my message at #41;

@axelm You have multiple people on this thread who have tried to contact you to give you money, yet you say you haven't received them. Maybe you need to check your email deliverability.

@b1ueh4wk

I'm working on a fork though it might not be ready soon but I think Drupal community need more solutions alongside Opigno. as I stated before I don't like some features of Opigno and think it is bloated in some ways and is not completely modular unless you go very deep inside its configurations. for example you can not easily remove or disable some modules you don't need.

I wanted to build a simple e-learning website (like udemy) in Drupal and came across to Opigno. It seems Drupal does not have a simple solution for such websites. course module is limited in functionality and if you want a very simple website to sell online courses you have to go for a DIY approach with group module and integrate it with commerce license module.

So, now I am doing my best to create a very modular solution. The negative part is that it may not be fully compatible with Opigno for migration.

Man, need a some chilled h20 for all of this spice up in here. ;)